On the Drawing Board #12: Monster Variety

Posted 29th Apr 2009 11:57 AM by Flux


This installment of On the Drawing Board examines the issue of monster variety, and after establishing what the D3 Team has told us so far, speculates about what we might see in the final game. The subject of monster variety is a question of balance. We all want some variety, but how much is enough, and how much is too much? Do you want 3 different types per area, or 10? Do you want to see the same monsters in the same areas every game, or do you prefer the D2X v1.10+ Act Five style of Guest Monsters, where you never know what you’ll find in the next fungal, stinking grotto or desolate, ice-licked plain?

It’s all basically opinion, at this point. How many, how much, how often? Click through to read the article and join in the debate.

On the Drawing Board #12: Monster Randomization

At the start, let me clarify what I mean by “randomization.” I’m not talking about the appearance of monsters, which is a topic worthy of discussion; but not the one I’m going to discuss here. If you think not, and that whether a skeleton wears a hat with horns or a skullcap is of no real importance, I encourage you to check out the lively discussion about it right here. The overall argument can be broken down to, “Give us as much randomization as possible, without degrading game performance.” But just what defines those terms is an interesting debate.

As for the topic of this column…

Monster Variety in Diablo 3

This is the real issue, and it’s not something we know much about yet. Will we see the same monsters in the same areas every game? Some different monsters? Or a total grab bag, reminiscent of the Guest Monsters in Act Five, v1.10+? It’s unknown at this point, in theory or practice. The D3 Team has talked about improving the AI, and discussed ways they can make the monsters work in teams.  But they’ve not talked about how the beasties will be distributed. A quote from one of the WWI panel discussions:

Blizzard Quote:

Can you give us some examples of monster AI and cooperation?

Blizzard: We try to make monsters work together. A lot of just mob monsters, and the big guys behind them are designed to be more specific. There’s a summoner skeleton in the demo. When you get several of those guys going they’re really hard to keep up with since they’re generating just lots and lots of skeletons. The goatman shaman is another example. He is what we call a “support character.” He can do all sorts of buffing of his other guys. He becomes a really high priority target. That’s what we keep revealing. We have soooooo many monsters. Endless variety. The ones we’ve shown today are cool, but the ones we held back are better.


As we’ve seen in screenshots and movies, Skeletal Shieldmen will spawn near and protect Skeletal Archers. Both might be supported by regular Skeletons, supplemented by Skeletal Executioners, and summoned and buffed by Skeleton Summoners. All of these types (and others yet to be revealed) won’t always spawn together, and when/where they do their numbers and types will vary. But the general principle is that monsters will complement each other in Diablo 3. More commonly and more formidably than they did in Diablo 2, at least.

That sounds like fun, and it’s a sort of randomization, but if the same pack(s) of the same types of skeletons are in the same places on the same levels in every game… it’s v1.07 D2X Act Five, all over again. We don’t know if Diablo 3 will be like this, but it might; the team has said that the game will feature a huge variety of different types of monsters, but they’ve said nothing about how much monster variety we’ll see, from game to game.

Diablo II’s Example

The obvious examples come from earlier games in the series. How did D1 and D2 handle this issue? Looking at Act Five in D2X is the best example, since it illustrates both extremes of the monster variety continuum.

Too Cold

In v1.07-v1.09, Act Five had no monster variety at all. It’s still this way in normal difficulty, and prior to v1.10, Nightmare and Hell were the same way.  In those olden days, every area had just a few monster types, who were found there every game. There was no variety or randomization whatsoever. Well, there was a little bit, just in the number and location of random boss packs, but some areas didn’t have any random bosses at all (the Bloody Foothills and World Stone Keep 1-3, for example), and even then the monster types were always the same.

That said, the monsters were all very cool, and were all well-suited and themed to their areas. Yeti and Frozen Horrors were found in the ice caves, Succubus and Minotaurs in the River of Flame-style Pit levels, Imps and Siege Beasts in the fortified surface areas, etc. Players knew exactly what they’d find in every area, but the monsters were varied enough from place to place that a fair variety of different builds were favored.

Too Hot

All that changed with v1.10, which blasted apart the static, no-monster-variety gameplay of Act Five. The v1.10 patch introduced Guest Monsters, monsters seen in earlier acts, that had upgraded stats and that now appeared all throughout Act Five. In that patch and ever since, every area of Act Five has been a crap shoot of variety. There are more than 50 types of guest monsters, and up to a dozen different types of monsters can spawn in every level of Act Five, giving less than infinite variety, but not a great deal less.

The variety was fun after the unchanging non-variety of early D2X, but Guest Monsters seemed to be thrown in fairly randomly and without any thought given to how they would work together, which lessened their effect. It wasn’t just that players didn’t know if their character would find a level impossible or laugh through it, it was that there seemed to be no rhyme or reason to the monster combinations. An area might have quill rats and skeleton archers one game, then Blood Lords and Prowling Dead the next (one of each would have been a much happier mixture), which made for a very uneven, unbalanced play experience.

Just Right?

The randomization of everything is a big selling point of the Diablo series, but the principle can be overdone. D3 isn’t one of those Baldur’s Gate type D&D RPGs with every map man-made and every encounter carefully pre-planned. That said, Diablo players do want some method behind the madness of monster allocation, a feature that was handled very well in D1 and D2. To take the more recent example, every area in the first four acts of Diablo 2 has some variety in the enemies to be found there, but there’s a fairly limited number of monsters that can spawn in each level, and their values are set such that appropriate, varied bunches are spawned. Seldom do you find a level with only melee or only ranged attackers, or with every type of monster immune to the same element(s). There will always be some builds that find certain areas/monster-combos much easier or harder, but the overall experience should be doable for all characters; not too easy or too hard, relatively speaking.

This theory went out the window with Guest Monsters.  The variety was intriguing, but it was overdone. Not only are the guest monsters very uneven in individual difficulty (even with their boosted stats, most of the Act One/Two ones are underpowered compared to Act Four/Five demons), but the ragtag variety of inappropriate monsters ruins any thematic beauty and grace of the levels. It gets boring if you only see ice-based monsters in the frozen tunnels, but it’s weird to find Corrupted Rogues and skeletons there. Not to mention what it does to any semblance of plot or story behind the types of monsters found in various areas.

Seeking Goldilocks

There are a variety of questions to ponder, when designing our dream version of Diablo 3.

How much randomization do we really want in Diablo 3? I assume most players fall somewhere between the extremes of v1.09 and v1.10 Act Five—more variety than none; less than almost totally random—but I’m just assuming. Did anyone prefer early Act Five, where things were totally predictable? Does anyone think the current Guest Monster system is ideal?

How many types of monsters would you like to see in an area? Diablo II usually has 2-3 types per level, chosen from a pool of 3-5 possible types.  Is that a good number? Or do you prefer the Cow Level, or the original WSK2, with just minions, minions, and exploding minions?  Or would you like more different types per level? How would a level play with half a dozen different monsters mixed in together? Fun variety, or crazy chaotic confusion? On the other extreme, how about super rare monster spawns? What if there were a 1/100 chance of Lister-type monsters appearing in the Flayer Jungle, or the Chaos Sanctuary? (Assume their stats were balanced up or down, appropriately.) Would that be fun, or gimmicky?

Finally, how about boss bonuses? In lots of levels of Diablo II, one or two types of monsters can appear, but only in boss or champion form. What if this were taken further, and there was a sort of boss-only Guest Monster feature? You might get Fallen, or Quill Rats, or Greater Mummies in Act Four… but only in boss packs.

There are so many possible ways to deal with monster variety, and opinions differ. What’s yours?



On the Drawing Board is written by Flux. These articles examine crucial game design issues and decisions in Diablo 3 by explaining the issue and presenting arguments for and against. On the Drawing Board aims to spur debate and further the conversation, rather than converting readers to one side or the other. Conversation and disagreement is encouraged. Have your say in the comments, or contact the author directly. Suggestions for future column topics are welcomed.




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Turin">Turin
Posted 29, Apr 2009 08:28 PM
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Nice Drawing Board Flux, like always (although there’s a little bug, the article is called “Monster Variety” in the headline and “Monster Randomization” in the sub-headline :D).

I personally do prefer more the early act5-versions with the same opponents waiting. After some runs you know what will come and either will fear it or look eager to it, if your character is well fit for those type of opponents. So you feel just a bit “familiar” in those areas and they stay in your mind (like telling your geek-friends how you totally pwned those frost-immun mobs in area x with your frost-sorcerer, just because you are 7331).

That said - this only works if you don’t run this areas regulary. Something like Mephisto ... some more randomization would take the numbness away from the thousands of runs (and make it harder to “build” chars especially for those purpose).

Blizzard already said they try to create a game that is more rewarding if you play it through than if you just run one specific area over and over. If they by any means reach that goal, I’m totally fine with less variaty, just because you go through so many areas that you have enough monster-variety by that factor.

If you, in the end, just run through one specific area again and again and again ... again, more variety is better (although total variety like guest monsters is imho never good).

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Foober
Posted 30, Apr 2009 12:49 AM
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“Some areas didn’t have bosses at all (the Bloody Foothills and WSK, for example)”

Shenk the Overseer, Baal.

Flux, please get rid of those obnoxious full-screen IncGamers advertisements that show on every click of a diii.net link. If diii.net were a fast site I would mind less, but diii.net is a slow site and with those full-screen ads it is about three times slower.

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Lanthanide
Posted 30, Apr 2009 01:37 AM
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As usual (from me) Diablo 1 was best here.

This is particularly evident in the Hell levels, where on dlvl 14 and 15 you would always have 2 different types of enemies, but due to the way the system worked, not all types of enemies could spawn together. So you might get Steel Lords and Soul Burners, but you would never get Blood Knights and Soul Burners, for example, but Blood Knights and Steel Lords was a possible combination.

Using this system it is possible to hand-craft the combinations of monsters that can allowably spawn and ensure that they would be fun combinations with nothing being too ridiculously hard (in general). Diablo 2 however just has a range of monsters that can spawn in a particular area, and then chooses a handful of them, so any random combination of the allowed monsters on a level was a valid combination, whereas Diablo 1 had (many) specific combinations that could never occur.

Diablo 1’s system also let you have levels where only ranged attackers or only melee attackers spawned. This made trips down to Hell in Diablo 1 very rewarding as you never quite knew what you’d be up against, sometimes it’d be straightforward, other times a big challenge, but generally it was always fun (and if not you could just quit). I bet if the monster distribution in Diablo 1 was more static, like Act 5 of D2X, the game wouldn’t have had anywhere near the staying power that it did (does), and we probably wouldn’t be on this website discussing D3.

This was particularly nice in the cats levels as well where you’d typically get between 5 and 7 different monster types - you could always be pretty sure that you’d get 1 or 2 types of skeletons, probably a goat of some kind and then some other interesting monsters like gargoyals, acid beasts, magma demons or hidden but it was never ever an ‘anything goes’ mess like the guest monsters in Act 5 are. Sometimes you could get 4 different types of goats (fire clan and night clan melee + archers of both, for example), or 3 types of skeletons, or 2 types of hidden. I don’t believe you ever really see sub-types of the same particular monsters overlapping on a single level in Diablo 2.

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Flux
Posted 30, Apr 2009 02:04 AM
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”, like always (although there’s a little bug, the article is called “Monster Variety” in the headline and “Monster Randomization” in the sub-headline :D).”

Bug? Feature!!1!  I wrote the subheader title in word when I started on the column there. The main headline was whatever I typed into the post script, and if there was any conscious thought, I probably wanted “variety” since it’s a little shorter and doesn’t have the double meaning “randomization” has, as addressed in the first paragraph of the column.

“Some areas didn’t have bosses at all (the Bloody Foothills and WSK, for example)”
Shenk the Overseer, Baal.

Dac Farren too! I meant random bosses, not pre-set superuniques. Should have clarified or maybe I just dropped the qualifier during editing. I’ll edit it now.


“I don’t believe you ever really see sub-types of the same particular monsters overlapping on a single level in Diablo 2.”
You do fairly often in act one.  zombies, skeletons, fallen… I alwyas enjoyed the levels with 2 different colored fallen running around together; you’d get blue shamans and then some orange ones would enter the scene and die… they must have been like, Catholics and Protestants, since the blue shamans would not help the orange dead. No resurrection for you!

I didn’t go much into IMHO in this column, since these columns aren’t “what Flux wants in D3.” They’re intended to research and present the issue for debate. That said, I thought D1 did it very well early on, church and cats, but that it was too simple in hell.  just 2 monsters per level is too easy to specialize tactics against. It was fun, and in D1 your character’s attacks are fairly basic so maybe simplicity is best, but it was fairly exploitable; run through and lure all the knights or drakes out while the mages stay behind, wake up half the monsters with Wave of Fire while the rest don’t even flinch, etc. It made taking advantage of monster AI too simple.

I think (larger) levels are best with a mixture of 3-5 enemies, chosen from a pool of oh… 6-8. And with controls so that you always get at least 1 melee and 1 ranged, and ideally a variety of damage types. Gives players more variety in the enemies, doesn’t allow easy exploits, penalizes characters who specialize entirely in one element, rewards good builds with all around power or mixed parties, etc.  All that said, a totally wacky level/spawn can be fun once in a while.  4 types of ranged attackers, huge mega mobs of melee fighters, etc. Just not every game, or else you get something like the Cow Level, where game balance and variety becomes a farce.

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GoldenBird
Posted 30, Apr 2009 02:21 AM
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I always thought taking the same monster and recoloring them and giving them a different name was always pretty name (aka Act 3 and 5…).

I like the idea of a bunch of possibilities and then a few out of that pool being picked. But I also think that these possibilities have to match the area/lore, and that there should be no recolorings and renameings! It always bugged me in Catacombs level 1 with the rat men… they really don’t fit at all, they’re jungle dudes. And the swamp creepers or whatever they’re called (the green sand lurkers in act 3), they were always soooo lame…

If they do have recolored and renamed monsters, I would like that maybe there are some more little “details” were added… so for example, like the green sand lurkers in A3, they could maybe have some swamp muck or vines hanging off of them. I’ve always failed to understand how they could be so spotless and clean while living in swamps…

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mouseman
Posted 30, Apr 2009 06:02 AM
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I think they have it pretty much right in Diablo 2. Just 2-3 per level from pool of 3-5. The numbers could be a little higher if the levels are big. That’s appropriate for making the levels feel familiar, but not repetitive.

However, I always liked (still like in normal) act5 just the way it is. Maybe this should be toned down just to apply in certain areas, though. You could start with static bloody foothills, have random enemies in between, but again have some static ice levels and of course nithlathlak’s temple smile

I also very much like the idea of something very rare happening once in a while. There could be something like “dimension rifts” bringing monsters from other acts or even difficulty levels. It would of course just be amusing to see act1 normal monsters in hell difficulty levels, but it could indicate a real challenge for a party to get few monsters in normal from nightmare difficulty.. You could maybe limit this by level so it wouldn’t ruin anyone’s first Diablo 3 game.

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Mackan
Posted 30, Apr 2009 12:46 PM
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Variety is good. I don’t want things to be too predictable or static. I liked how it worked in Diablo 1 on some levels, where you really feared certain combinations of monster types. I hope they do the same in Diablo 3.

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Krugar
Posted 30, Apr 2009 01:16 PM
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Interesting theme for debate Flux. Thanks!

I too was a little uncomfortable with the Guest Monsters method introduced with 1.10, for the exact same reasons as you are. I wouldn’t like to see the concept dropped, however. Just bettered.

Assuming a similar difficulty levels system to D2, I would like for Normal difficulty in D3 to be no different than it was on D2. i.e. Each area has a rather small thematic monster pool from which it rolls a subset of monsters that will populate the area. Monster randomization is kept to a minimum here in order to provide players with a familiar setting that becomes a Normal Difficulty hallmark.

But Nightmare and Hell are a different ballpark altogether. Personally I would like for monster generation to be treated much like item drops in Diablo.

If this means Monster “TC” tables, is for Blizzard to decide. But essentially I would like for Nightmare and Hell to present players with a wider variety, but constrained to some logic. And yet, straying from this logic, there would also be included small odds for “Special Appearances”—special monsters, or monster packs, that would be sought after the players (or shunned by) for one reason or another.

These Special Appearances could be thought of as the monster equivalent of item Uniques and sets. Highly sought after the players because of the possible rewards (extra XP, or some quest, or better drop rates) or shunned by players because of the penalties (though meanie, or no XP, or no drops).

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LaZeR
Posted 30, Apr 2009 02:54 PM
(0)
 

Wow, ncie subject I never thought of. However, I think D2X got it right:

* All acts in N/NM/Hell should have a 2-3 monsters types chosed from 4-6 pool, with combinations in mind. Gues Monsters are no-no since they’re too inappropriate in some areas, as Flux mentioned (Ice Caves Rouge for ex.)

* The last act in Hell, as in D2X, should be Guest Monster’d. It should just make since plot-wise, like a Chaotic Act with no main elements that can create a contradiction between monsters and areas. Too fun to give up.

* The Guest Monsters bosses are a great idea for a bit of variety and suprise to the game. Me like!

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