PKing Played Down

PKing was, and still is for those playing D2, the bane of many. Although no game-specifics are included, Diablo II Community Manager Bashiok gives Blizzard's philosophical view of "griefing," in a post on the official WoW forums.

	Blizzard Quote:
	We're - in general - not big fans of griefing for any game. It's really only "fun" for one person, and that definition of fun isn't generally something we're going to want to encourage. It's far more positive to encourage and support meaningful and skillful options and systems within a game, than a mechanic for people to instantly turn against one another for no meaningful gameplay reasons. I definitely remember running with my friends, and someone toggles it, and bam everyone is dead and your one friend is laughing. Ok, ok, good joke I guess, and then you run back and bam, you've toggled it to get them back. After a while everyone usually agrees to a truce because it's just a waste of time. But I also remember running with random players and losing extremely nice items because of it, not cool. I'm sure that it was a feature that was right up some people's alleys, I won't deny there are some that would enjoy nothing more than to see others frustrated, but is that truly something that should be encouraged through design - if not directly opposed? We have a large focus on cooperative play for Diablo III, and the mechanics and design decisions related to multiplayer are likely going to be based on supporting and encouraging it as much as possible, and not breaking it down. That doesn't mean that PvP won't have its own focus, but those are details and features we aren't yet discussing.

Tags: bashiok, pvp

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Comments

Ishmayl

48 days ago

Seems like one really good way to handle this would be to allow the game maker, when creating the game, to click on an option as to whether PvP will be allowed in the game. So if I make a game for duelling, I click on the "Allow PvP?" box. If I want a game for versions of fun that involve more than one, maxed-out, usually glitch-and-bug-studded player, I click on the "Disallow PvP?" box. Seems simple enough.

slovek

48 days ago

I think that limitation is never the answer. So many people in wow get angry when they get ganked. Then when they hit 70 they complain that world pvp is dead. I personally would be very disappointed if griefing is disabled totally in D3. It was a part of the fun. Yes I got griefed, but killing them later was so much more satisfying. Limiting a game like this spells for disaster.

royale

48 days ago

I would really like them to find some way to make it fair/fun/interesting for both PKs and and people who rally against them. Going all the way back to the original Diablo, PKs always added something neat to the game imo.

I never really got into it myself, the only pvp I ever did were duals or mass fights outside blood moor, but it was pretty cool that you kinda had to watch your back around strangers when adventuring. They could be helping you one minute and then looting your gold the next, so you always had to keep an eye on them until you make sure they are on the up and up.

smartdot

48 days ago

IMHO i think that either there should be no loss the the killee (including death on HC) or they should allow the toggle. Its really not fun to just be ganked nonstop, especially when you were working towards a goal then have to start over in a new game.

Jaklax

48 days ago

Has to be some evil in the game, b/c ur most def not gonna get an evil/terror feel from the art..=P

Elly

48 days ago

I believe Ishmayl's suggestion is on a game by game basis, not character so when hitting the upper levels you can toggle PvP on at game creation if you wish.

jonnytx

48 days ago

I lost a couple hc characters in D2 and otherwise felt pretty annoyed from time to time because of hostile players, but the game was much more exciting for it and I wouldn't change a thing if the decision was mine to make.

Ishmayl

48 days ago

Yes, Elly is correct, my suggestion was for a game-by-game basis. So, everytime you create a new game, you can choose to allow PKs, or not to.

Merick

48 days ago

Honestly, I got PKed maybe once every three months in SC, it's not really a big issue.

Lyrs

48 days ago

Here's what I would do:
1) Everyone starts out as Co-op
2) Once you beat the game, you can choose to play on the Evil side
3) Put "human" monsters (HM) into the game, i.e. monsters that look like regular humans with all the gears of a player. Not all HM are player controlled, most are NPC
4) Players can choose to be a HM
5) When chosen, HM is randomly inserted into a game with relevant difficulty settings
6) The HM is attackable by all, players and other monsters, etc. HMs deal 1/4 dmg to normal monsters, and monsters deal 3x dmg to HMs.
7) The HM only gets XP from killing players, not monsters, etc. HM levels like a Player.
8) The HM gets Ears, gold, and xp from killed players (automatically picked up). Ears & gold can be traded for stuff, bonuses, etc.
9) When the HM kills a player, the player looses whatever they typically do when killed.
10) When an HM dies, the player gets xp, gold, a randomly chosen item from the HMs active worn slots
11) The HM only has so many lives, 3?, unless HC. Lives can be replenished by buying with gold and ears. If all lives are consumed, HM character is ghosted.
12) HM cannot talk to Players, but may talk to each other.
13) HM have a Save&Exit counter of time, 10secs(?). HM must play/wait time length before game exits.
14) If HM is disconnected/dies, loses 1 life and/or if HC, character gets stripped of all XP and half of his randomly selected worn gear, but retains level.

SSH83

47 days ago

The PK control in Diablo 1 was brutal as the blue described, but imo D2 PK worked fine. o.o

Azozel

47 days ago

I have to say, I did enjoy some of the excitement that came with the PK experience, but I have to agree with Blizzard on this one.

It seems Blizzard is trying to give the game more depth and more story, just an all around better RPG. I can understand Blizzard wanting to encourage people to work together in a role playing since and the previous PK experience really did not have much in the way of a story to back it up.

I expect the PvP we're allowed to participate in Diii to fit in with the rest of the story and RPG focus Blizzard has placed on the game. My guess is, we'll be seeing some type of PvP Arena or faction based system. I believe this quote from the Witchdoctor page sort of hints at possible faction based pvp or Arena:

I just hope people can not get gear through Arena... I dont want to quit 2 Blizzard games because of the same thing.

Legion17

47 days ago

Would it be possible to do pvp arenas? That way the focus is on the co-op game play and pvp its own realm? Also maybe include pvp gear as a bonus for doing arenas similar to how its run in WoW?

Flux

46 days ago

They'll certainly plan on doing pvp arenas, though there's no telling if they'll make it into the game or not. the D2 team planned pvp arenas and guild halls too.

However, there are and always have been numerous dueling games on the realms, and that's done nothing to eliminate pk'ing. People who pk don't want a fair fight, at least not right then. They want to kill people by surprise, or with ease, or because they're bored, or to be a dick, of for whatever reason. People don't turn to PKing because they couldn't find opponents to duel. "Griefing" is what most players hate, and it's what the developer is talking about in this interview. It's what's only fun for one player; dueling is fun for everyone, even the losers, who at least are choosing to engage in the duel.

Arkansaw

45 days ago

The toggle is a reasonable enough idea, we can even give the players some incentive for remaining in a game in which the toggle is off and someone not themsevles has initiated hostile (i.e. hunting is now live). That incentive can be in the form of an exp boost for killing regular monsters while remaining as one of the hunted

Lockinvar

44 days ago

The PK system in Diablo II is (from a general design standpoint) great. However, due to TPPK hacks and other stuff, you simply cannot play hardcore with people you don't trust with every hour you've put into your character(s). I love hardcore Diablo II, but it's simply unplayable these days. Flux is right, dueling is great, but greifers have always found new ways to insta-kill people who are just trying to play normally, and it has completely ruined D2 for me (and I'd say most other HC players).

And it could all be fixed with the simple addition of an "Allow PVP" box on bnet game creation, as has been suggested. I'd hate to see D3 suffer the same griefer problems.

CombatShrine

44 days ago

i just dont like pk'ing in diablo2 because its usually not a fair fight (except for ironman hc games, which are pretty cool even if slanted towards the assassin)

how is it fair when my untwinked character in a2 norm gets hostiled by some hyper-twinked monstrosity that can kill level 40's? the only option is to leave the game, or lose gold, or in the case of hc, lose it all.

kavlor

44 days ago

Yeah same here and Im actually dissappointed and rather see more, like people have said it adds excitment especially if theres a chance you can beat them(which I have done on occasion).I think the fact that people leech a lot means theres no challenge for Pkers,I think they Breed more where theres the biggest rush to gain.

Baranor

44 days ago

PK-ing should be gone. PvP is for people who both enjoy PvP... I like the option in DII, and have used it aplenty (1732 Hardcore ears, to be preceise, and have reinstalled last week as I want to hit 2K before DII is over), but I shan't miss it if it is not present in DIII. In the end, it leads to too much grief.

Gamekk

43 days ago

This is going to be awesome in just every way!

They will eliminate the grief PK side and probably add more to the PvP side, duels, etc.

Terenas

43 days ago

I agree with Ishmayl. The times I've peen PK'd never were fun. It mainly happened while I was leveling and the killer generally left game as soon as I got back with a decent character.

Player Killing is not PvP (at least in my view), in this area Guild Wars just hit the spot with its system, you can't be killed by some jerk going around to flaunt his items, ever. If you want PvP you play PvP (and in a far more strategic way than Diablo 2 ever allowed for).

Thaquitz

43 days ago

Simple imho, make both players chose to go hostile. Then you cant die unless you agree to it. To the guy that mentioned getting ganked in WoW, you can never "unwilling" be ganked. You have to either a) flag yourself PvP or b) enter contested territory or opposing faction territory. Both those are choices you made so then you can deal with it. Having some random lvl 90 enter my game while I do Trist runs and decide to kill us all is not PvP.

Zobimanguydo

42 days ago

perhaps a "no naked kill" policy, that is if we even pick our bodies up once we're slain in diablo 3...

CombatShrine

42 days ago

whats the point. if any of the skills are prebuffs, they'll just spam your corpse with spells so you'll die as soon as you grab your body so you cant like, BO or bubble or anything.

pking is just dumb, there's no way around it.

Baranor

42 days ago

Speaking frmo the side of the pk-er, I can wholeheartedly agree with you. I've killed, killed, killed, and then killed some more players, and I would like to see forced hostility removed from the game. It is not that I do not like it, or would not use it if it is in DIII ( I shall use it if forced hostility exists), but I would rather see it gone. It is better that way, less grief.

AlexanderM

42 days ago

I agree with a lot of you, surprise-killing and ganking shouldn't be part of D3. Arenas and voluntary PvP are definitely a must though, fighting against your friends always added a fun dynamic to D2. Flagging games as PvP on creation is also a good idea, allows the creator of the game to play the style they want.

Elly

21 days ago

And yet they've done nothing about ganking in WoW even with Lich King and don't plan on addressing it at all. If a level 70 decides he's going to repeatedly kill your level 20 he can, and for as many times and for as long as he wants. There's absolutely no penalty.

It's left up to you to either abandon what you're doing and move to another area or try to get a friend of his level, pull them off whatever they're doing to come babysit you while you get through your quest line. At which point they usually rally some friends, you do the same and before you know it you're 2 hours into your game time, you've not got your quest done and it's time to log off.

Age of Conan has one way of dealing with this. A Notoriety System (http://www.aocwire.net/n/291/pvp-revamp-details), not suggesting that system is adopted here but I do think ganking should be addressed. I've had to abandon play on more than one occasion because I can't complete a quest because some tool keeps killing me. I'm not talking PvP here - that's fine, either dueling or getting jumped by someone of a similar level and having a scrap. But one-hit kills, nah they're only fun for the gankers and frustrating for the player.

As for Griefing, Blizzard made an interesting post on the WoW forums which may give some more insight into what their philosophy is.

Blizzard Quote:

The accepted understanding of what is and what is not "griefing," Warisa, is purposefully vague. Such ambiguity and flexibility disallows any sort of pigeon-holing to occur, as once you clearly define something, you place limitations on its purview.

Does that make sense? Yes, no?

Alright.

Our Harassment policies were created to protect the denizens of Azeroth (and now Outland) from behavior which would completely impede one's intended in-game experience and progression. Stipulations regarding various levels of profanity cover verbal faux-pases and those listed as physical harassment, zone/area disruption, and ongoing griefing handle the more tangible aspect of game play. While verbal violations are more cut and dry�since what is and what is not profanity is fairly clear-cut or easily contextualized�placing a rather firm label of what's considered "griefing" is a bit more tricky.

Why?

Well, first you have take into account what the reported activity is. Repeatedly skinning corpses after a player has looted its contents? Repeatedly farming mining or herbing nodes within a particular region? Repeatedly killing a player at his or her corpse? Repeatedly blocking in-game NPCs and doodads? Repeatedly killing quest givers or vendors for an inordinate amount of time? Repeatedly attacking mobs in the same area as another player? Repeatedly MCing another player off the chain in Blackrock Mountain? Playing in an area much lower than one's level? Repeatedly dragging Elite mobs into a zone with the intent to kill as many citizens within as possible?

Out of those, only four are potential violations. They're quoted below.

Repeatedly killing a player at his or her corpse?
Repeatedly blocking in-game doodads?
Repeatedly killing quest givers or vendors for an inordinate amount of time?
Repeatedly dragging Elite mobs into a zone with intent to kill as many citizens within as possible?

From there, you have to review where such an activity occurred. Did the corpse camping occur on a PvP realm? Is the doodad within a highly-populated area? Were the quest givers in a low level zone; were they located in a central quest hub; was it on a PvE realm? Did the Elite get dragged into a highly-populated lower level city or quest point?

And, moving forward, you then have to know for what length of time such an activity lasted. Since the corpse camping occurred on a PvP realm, for what length of time did it take place? How long did the player block the doodad? For what period of time and at what frequency were the quest givers and vendors killed? How many times was an Elite mob dragged into a low level zone?

Continuing, though perhaps lastly, you have to determine and evaluate ALL remaining mitigating factors. Okay, so if the corpse camping occurred on a PvP realm and only lasted for one hour, was any other form of harassment taking place? Which doodad was blocked, specifically, and was the player asked to move at any point during the duration; did the player actually block the doodad completely? How many players were impeded by these repetitive killings�was a ransom offered? was in the spirit of RP? were players offered a reprieve through their own vices? What level was the Elite mob; was it Hogger?

I'm going to imput my own variables for each hypothetical situation�

Player was corpse-camped by a member of the opposite faction repeatedly for one hour. No other form of communication or interaction occurred.

Tauren on Kodo mount stood atop the mailbox in Orgrimmar for a period of 2 and a half hours. Was asked repeatedly and nicely to move, though continued to block FULL access to the doodad for the length of time previously listed.

Orc Rogue on an RP(PvE) realm decided to repeatedly kill all quest givers within Sentinel Hill for a period of 45 minutes, resulting in over 35 NPC deaths. No clear attempts to roleplay are found. 15 separate reports are received, indicating a large audience. In-game observance clears shows that all NPCs are killed at the moment of their spawn, completely stopping quest progression within the zone.

Player attempted to drag�let's say�Volchan to Goldshire for fun. From a low level player's perspective, it appeared as though this player was purposefully (and repeatedly) attempting to grief the entire quest hub. Several reports are submitted. Further investigation, however, reveals that the player was simply trying to meet his/her friend within Stormwind so they could share the kill. The player was an inexperienced kiter, and lost control of the mob one or two times, but never purposefully let Volchan loose on the city itself. With this, no direct player deaths were caused by the activity.

I've italicized the examples which actually prove to be a violation and fall under the umbrella of "griefing." As you can see, of the nine, only TWO qualify. This is because what player's deem harassment isn't actually what proves to be true.

Being really quick to grab profession nodes? Absolutely fine. Questing in an area much lower than one's actual level? Perfectly acceptable. Engaging in repetitive world PvP combat? Yes, this is fine, too. Even so, all such things require oodles and oodles of context�context which players cannot always see.

This is why it's always good to bump such matters up to our department if you're concerned. While our policies provide excellent guidelines by which to judge, true assessment is pretty much moot on the player level. As we possess as much omniscience as is really possible, our perception and understanding of whether or not a specific behavior is harassing or benign will carry the most weight.

Hope that helps.